Odear. Perhaps my builders were a few mm out!

5 years ago

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><md>Hi all,

So after a long 4 months of decisions and discussions I am finally ready to spend some money on things that I will actually be able to see and won't be covered by plaster!!

Having had the conversation about what sort of flooring I'm going to use months ago I am a little frustrated to see that either my sliding door is too low or my suspended floor is too high.

You can see from the photograph (with the aid of a plaster bead) that the subfloor is in line with my sliding door. Who knows what happened... But this is the situation I am in. Ignore the gap inbetween as it'll just be made flush with the rest of the floor.

The length of the door is approx 5m long. So a substantial part of the extension.

Now the problem... Once I go directly on top of it my flooring will be higher than the door as it meets the door..!

What should I do?

Featured Answer

User

5 years ago

Just remember they cost 5K to you... but probably not to the supplier or manufacturer. Thats not harsh... we spend our hard earned livings on these projects and expect the job to be done properly. But i guess if you are happy to live with something you arent happy with for the rest of your life because someone you have paid a fortune to has made a mistake, then thats fine. But not me... we did our extension ourselves and had a few jobs done for us such as doors and final flooring etc and as we paid for that to be done, i expected perfection...otherwise we would have done it ourselves.

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Comments (38)

tonicuk
Original Author
5 years ago
Looks like there's gremlins at work. Here are the photographs!
rinked
5 years ago
Oh my..
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Benn
5 years ago
Have you spoken to the builder about it yet? Surely it will be down to them to sort this out
Monica
5 years ago
I am so sad to see this, poor you it must feel horrid after all that time and money invested. I would speak with them and demand they come with a solution. Someone, somewhere made a mistake and they need to sort it out. Please keep us posted and good luck.
tonicuk
Original Author
5 years ago
Thanks for the responses! I have had a brief phone conversation with my builder in which I explained the problem. My response was "I'll call you back" ♂️

On the edge of my seat to say the least.

The only solution I can think of (that won't cost £1000s) is to replace my 22mm subfloor with something at least 15mm smaller.... Meaning I would end up with something like 6mm Plywood or so...

6mm Plywood is probably half of what I would expect to be the bare minimum for subfloor, right?

What to do...
User
5 years ago
It may be possible to jack the doors up as we had that done on ours. It maybbe worth contacting that door installers in case that is an option?! You certainly wouldnt not want 6mm as a sub floor...definitely not as it would flex.
PRO
Constructica
5 years ago
Re fitting the doors a bit higher is the best solution but this will only work if there is enough clearance between the top of the door frame and underside of lintel/steelwork above. I’ve seen a trick where a long aluminium L shaped trim painted in the same RAL colour can be fitted to the lower section of door frame/cill as a kind of upstand which would be level with the finished floor level, when viewed from outside it looks like part of the door frame. Reducing floor board thickness risks excess deflection but you could go to 18mm chipboard if the joists are 400mm centres. Last resort could be plane down top of joists by a couple of millimetres and then fit 18mm flooring but check they are correctly sized first or oversized!

Or, bin the chipboard and fit hardwood flooring directly to the joists as a finished floor. Hope it works out!
Pavan123
5 years ago
Too late to change your flooring to maybe a glue down vinyl? Would be much thinner....
kwg kwg
5 years ago
Sorry to hear about this. To me this sounds like a fault of the door company, they did the measurements on site so they should have taken into account of the subfloor plus the flooring thickness for tiles or wood floor. Have you also been in contact with the door company? Was the door company recommended by your builder? If so get your builder to speak to the door company to come up with the solution between them and make sure they don't charge you for doing the extra work, someone got it wrong and it wasn't you.

My husband was just talking about someone having the same issue today and apparently they managed to shift the whole frame upwards.

Good luck and keep us posted of the outcome.
tonicuk
Original Author
5 years ago
Thank you for the responses.
I spoken with my builder, who made the measurements and fitted the door. They are accredited by the door company to carry out the work.

It seems the error was made during measurement... They forgot to subtract the thickness of my proposed flooring (20mm). I intend on having engineered wood flooring that it typically 15-17mm.

Understandably mistakes happen and I am not willing to pay for a new set of doors. I also think it is a little harsh of me to demand a new set of doors for the sake of 20mm. Especially considering the cost of them.

So, the cheapest solution is to dismantle the door and frame, cut out the 8ishmm expanding foam and move the door up. Secondly, replace my 22mm caber board to 18mm.

This will leave me with about 14mm to fit my flooring.

I did intend on having something thicker but the question is should I settle for this solution?
PRO
User
5 years ago
I would say no, it's not acceptable for you to have to amend anything at all. It is the builder's fault, they measured everything and they are responsible. It is not for you to have to be accommodating and change your flooring at a cost to you. I would say, change the doors at the builder's cost.

15mm ply is standard for a sub floor, it depends on what the substrate is.
tonicuk
Original Author
5 years ago
You are a harsh customer.
The doors cost around £5000 and took 8 weeks to have made and fitted. I do have a personal timeline looming as well so an additional 8 weeks would mess things up quite a bit!

I do intend on using the builders for future use, so would like to keep on good terms with them.

Here's a picture of the suspended floor beneath, approx 400mm centres built with 8x2". The door itself sits on a concrete step made by the builders
kwg kwg
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
In principle, I agree with Man About the House and it's not being harsh. If the builder measured up ( and this is something he does day in day out as part of his job ) there should have been no mistake, presuming he had already asked you the thickness of your intended floor when he measured up. What if you had already ordered your 20mm wood floor, would he expect you to re-order a brand new floor to accomodate the error and would you do that? The cost of fixing the issue definitely has to be with the builder whether it be a brand new set of doors or Plan B as you mentioned. Was Plan B a suggestion of the builder?

By changing to the sub floor to 18mm chipboard and cutting into the expanding foam, will it definitely give you at least 14mm? Could they shift it up further? Are you having them glued or floating as you will have to take this into account too so that might take another 2-3mm. Most engineered flooring are at least 14mm/15mm so you could be looking for around another 18mm. If you are having beading where the wood floor meets the door you will also need to take this into account. Rather than have a flat beading perhaps there is an L shaped beading so corner section can sit in between the wood floor and door so even if there is 2-3mm higher then the door, it will give a nice finisher if you are outside looking in?

Another trick that my floor fitter told me ( as he said some of his clients had a similar issue ), was that when he was fitting the planks near the door, he would shave off some of the wood floor underneath so that once the planks were fitted, it would meet the door height but obviously this was done in a very subtle way so that you wouldn't notice the gradient. That could also be an option. Obviously the quality of the underside of the wood floor and the floor fitter skills would also be important. When the floor is being fitted, you could choose the planks of wood that would want near the door for shaving off as some of the underside of the floor boards are not that great all the time.

If you save a few mm here and there it might be ok. If you decide to go with Plan B due to your reasons above, make sure your bulider knows you are extremely unhappy about the situation and you are now having to accomodate for all your plans for his mistake to save him money. At the end of the day, it's your decision.

That's a huge opening by the way, will look lovely when it's all finished!
Monica
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
It's a tough one isn't it? I understand your dilemma as you sound like nice people and most likely the builder are also nice people , so you must feel trapped and torn about demanding that they re order them. The truth is the builder made a mistake and he needs to do the right thing and put it right. Right now, only you can make the decision, the one that would work best for you given the circumstances. Its going to look fantastic though :)
PRO
User
5 years ago
What is above the door? I know you said you have around 8mm expanding foam. Normally I would suggest 18mm ply......plus your 15mm flooring. Just wondering if the builders can hack out further above?
tonicuk
Original Author
5 years ago
Thank you for the responses. A very comprehensive explanation of options.

The door sits underneath a large steel beam, unfortunately!

I have had a lengthy discussion with my builder and explained that I need at least 19mm for a decent quality engineered floor.
His response was that we will:
1. Reduce floor from 22 to 18mm
2. Raise door frame by 4-5mm
3. .... This one is questionable. Dismantle the frame, take the head of the frame back to a factory (not the one it was made in) and cut 10mm off the head of it.
  He explained that it would be cut through a wet diamond cutting machine so there should be no chips or damage to the aluminium frame.
He said that it won't affect overall integrity or warranty.

So overall I will end up with 19mm additional.

Here are some pictures of the head of the frame to see what you guys think...

The thickness of the head is 40mm and the sides are 35mm.

Odear indeed.
rinked
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
If you decide to go that route: Make him sign some sort of guarantee to deliver an impeccable and undamaged endresult. And if he messes up, it's on him.

If it was mine, I'd rather wait for 8 weeks for a new door (but I'm the DIY type, so time is free) and he can use the 'old one' for a new project or however he pleases.

I'm a kitchen planner and we sometimes make mistakes too, we offer solutions on site, but if a customer declines, it's on our bill (customer 'just' has to wait for the new item). Nothing personal, just business.
PRO
User
5 years ago
Hi, that all sounds like a very sensible resolution to the problem. Just a quick suggestion:- As the top of the frame looks like it's less deep than the bottom already ( that's what it looks like from the pics ), why don't you cut the bottom of the door instead of the top to even it out a little?

If this is a process that the builder says is possible, then maybe as the top and bottom differ quite a bit, not raise the door at all, just cut the total 15mm off the bottom?
Jonathan
5 years ago
Do the floor joists have to stay at that height? Could he lower the floor? (there does appear to be a void underneath after all). Surely this is a similar time and labour implication to his solution of shaving the top of the door off.
kwg kwg
5 years ago
Regarding the door frame, I guess if a small section of it was taken off from the top or the bottom no-one would really notice. It only becomes an issue if your doors don't work properly after a while, they don't slide as smoothly after a couple of years due to settlement, movement etc, then you want to use your warranty to get it fixed but the door company says no because the frame has been modified etc. When we had our sliding doors installed, the door company was very specific in how the opening was prepared for the door installation otherwise the warranty would be invalid.

If you do go down this route, as rinq suggested, make sure he signs something with full details of what he has done and that any future costs to labour and parts to fix any future issues will be at his cost.

Where do those joists lead to at the back of your photo? Is it an L-shape and are the joists at that level so that you can have the same floor height has the rest of the existing house?
kwg kwg
5 years ago
May I ask who the door manufacturer/ company is?
PRO
Brandler London
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Personally I would not advise cutting the frame of the door down as I cannot imagine that it would not affect the manufacturer's warranty or the aesthetics.

WIth a thought on time I would suggest that you get the builder to remove the sub floor and drop the joists by the required dimension. I notice that they are floating so it is only the uprights that need to be removed and cut down depending on how he installed it.

An interesting point was raised about the L shape of the room and I assume that there is an internal doorway. Do you have the same conflict there as well? If not at presenbt then this can be dealt with by a very slight gradient meeting the internal door opening.

In my view this would be a relatively cheap option as all materials could be re-used and the amount of labour time required should be short.

Best of luck
User
5 years ago
I would also be very hesitant to trim the door frame as it would most likely affect manufacturers warranty. Please do check the conditions of the manufacurers warranty as these doors are not straightforward and you may need things sorted on them in the future.
tonicuk
Original Author
4 years ago
Hi guys, so it's time to get on with my project!

A few weeks back now I welcomed a baby boy into the world! He defo took priority over the build, hence the delay.

So, I have been in contact with my builder regarding the door. Following a brief conversation he explained that the door will be covered by the company's insurance and not to worry if the manufacturer's warranty is effected.

I also confirmed with the manufacturer... And yes it will void warranty.

Should I be happy with this? Overall I think they will trim about 15mm off the top.
User
4 years ago
Sorry.. personally no. Have you checked with the companys insurance? Also warranty normally covers little things that may go wrong... weve had a few. I dont think you would want to go thru the insurance rigmarole every time u need something sorted or adjusted. Sorry to be so negative.
PRO
OnePlan
4 years ago
The builder has insurance too. It was their error, so their cost to fix it so that you have what you paid for . And what you paid for is correct sized doors put into the right place with a full product guarantee.

Congrats on a lovely baby boy !!! That’s lovely news !! :-)
Martin
4 years ago
Not for me, wouldn't have much faith that if they cut them and you had problems down the line you'd hear from them.
Anthony (Beano)
4 years ago
I’m with Jonathan on this, id lower the floor if possible.
PRO
Verity & Beverley Ltd
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Hi, just a quick thought that may or may not work depending on a number of things but have you looked at taking the doors out and refitting them further out in the recess so that you can lift them up and the frame would sit in against the outside of the lintel. I can't see what the right hand side of the reveal looks like from the outside so cannot be certain this would work but thought as it is still an issue for you it might be worth raising it as an option.
kwg kwg
4 years ago
Congratulations on your baby boy! Lovely news!

I’m not quite sure what the company insurance is covering? Is the builder saying that if your doors stop working smoothly in a few years time that the company insurance will pay for a new set of doors? In which case why don’t he just put it through his insurance now? What if the company ceases to trade? You will be out of pocket as you will have to get a new set of doors or get it fixed. Sorry not helping with more questions than answers I know.

I think you should just say you want the doors replaced with the correct size and say no more. This is a mistake on their side.

The builder won’t be making a loss from your project, just less profit. Sometime this happens to them on projects, if they break something they need to rectify it etc. My builder told me they didn’t make any money on one of their loft projects because they slightly went over the party wall line after the tiles went on the side wall and they had to take the whole side of the loft back to behind the party wall line and pay for neighbour’s additional party wall surveyor fees as the client refused to pay the extra fees, it was the builder’s fault - I don’t think he will be making that mistake again!
Maths Wife
4 years ago
Still with everyone else, new doors. If he had ordered them back in April, they could have been here by now.
minipie
4 years ago
Congratulations! To me it seems like the obvious answer is to take up the subfloor boarding and trim or replace the joists underneath so they are shorter. Then put back either that 22mm boarding or slightly thinner boarding (minimum 18mm). Seems much better than mucking about with the doors.
PRO
MBH Carpentry and Joinery Ltd.
4 years ago
Having skimmed through the comments on here I would say a big no no to cutting down the door frame as it will more than likely void any warranty. The Builder has also appeared to admit they took the wrong measurement by forgetting to allow the 20mm for flooring. the best option if it were me would be if possible to drop the raised floor to the correct level. worth thinking about also is you said the there was a concrete plinth built to sit the doors onto, this is to take the weight of the doors and I guess its not hung off the steel over the door opening. this would need building up to the underside of the new door position and therefore imo would not be strong enough to take the doors final resting place as it will only be 20mm ish on top of what you already have. I think this will give you problems long term and I believe the builder is at fault and should rectify it at there cost not yours. Dropping the floor level if possible would be the quickest and cheapest solution rather than waiting for a new set of doors.
tonicuk
Original Author
4 years ago
Thank you all for the responses. I have been very busy but me and the wife decided to ask the builders to replace the doors.

I have spoken on the phone with an office member of theirs and sent 2 emails.
My first email was sent on Wednesday 3rd which listed the remaining work to be done, snagging and the replacing the doors. In response they sent someone around to have a look at the work.

That was the extra work sorted. However, heard nothing in response regarding the doors.

So on Friday 5th (yesterday) I sent a second email... Still no response.

I'd like to know where I stand and what to do if they refuse to replace the doors? Does anybody have any advice?

I can see this genuinely turning into a prolonged nightmare.

Thank you
Maths Wife
4 years ago
To be fair, you only complained on Wednesday in writing, and that was only 2/3 working days ago. To send another email on a Friday was good, but I wouldn't be unduly worried that they don't answer until the earliest Monday.

Did you get anything in writing from them when you first complained?

This link will take you to the Citizens Advice for Building Works website and what you need to do to take further steps.

I wouldn't worry yet!

How's the new baby?
PRO
Studio O+U Architects
4 years ago
Sorry to hear this but 20 mm is outside tolerance of any measurement for windows and glazing and would not normally be accepted.

I'm slightly more surprised by the suggestion on cutting the doors down- if they are aluminium sliding doors we would not recommend that at all.

If the frame were to be cut down meaning adjusted, it should only be done by the original installer, if at all. As you stand the risk of negating any guarantee the system has if one alters it out side the manufactures recommendations and the warrantee supplied by the installer.

If the doors are resized the glass will need to be replaced so one might as well do it properly.

As I said above, 20 mm is an excessive as these elements are generally precision made to plus or minus 2 mm.

Did the builder have any detail drawings that he was working to or was has it been done without drawn information ? It's really quite simple if there were a decent set of detail drawings as it would be down to your contractor to put right.

Hope this is useful

Best

David
tonicuk
Original Author
4 years ago
@ Maths Wife
Well, the only conversation we had was prior to ordering the door that I want to have it flush with the floor going down.

When I noticed the problem, we were not doing any work to the house because of my newborn. I didn't get anything in writing but the understanding was that alterations could be made... Which turns out to be them bodging/cutting corners..

I only messaged again on Friday because I was aware one of the office staff that has been dealing with my project was going on holiday Friday evening. So, I am not sure if I will hear from anyone.

Thank you, I wasn't aware there is citizens advice for building works.

Most importantly, new baby is growing into a very cuddly little man! Happy and healthy.

Thanks!

@ Studio O+U Architects
Thanks for the expert advice!

I agree 20-25mm is too much to cut from anything... The manufacturer has already stated it would void warranty and that was not a sacrifice I am willing to make. Nor one I should consider for someone else's mistake...

I am not sure what the process for measuring/ordering the door was but they are approved by the manufacturer to measure and fit the doors....