Full refurbishment advise please

2 years ago

Hi everyone,

Hope the weekend is getting along just fine.

As mentioned in my previous posts, I finally have cleared all the paperwork to the property but have to wait for another 4-6 weeks for finances to come through. That would give me a head start, to get tradesmen lined up, who are like gold dust at the moment.

Just to recap, I am going to strip down the whole property, re-wire the place, install a new combi-boiler and central heating, knock down the wall between the dining room and fit an RSJ steel on pad stones, new internal door, new flooring, new carpets, plastering and paint. Besides loads of smaller jobs, as shown in the building survey.

I have had several builders visit the property but the quotes have varied from 46-78K!

One of the builders, I call him A, has a big company, seems pretty reliable, but his quotes seem to vary when checked out or compared with others.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought of getting the 'tearing' down jobs done by someone who has less feedback, is much cheaper and can start within weeks rather than months.

While the 'reconstructive' or delicate jobs, which can affect the structure of the property, such as RSJ and conservatory roof, I would stick with builder A, who has significant positive reviews online?

Would he take offence, to do only part of the jobs and not the complete refurbishment?

Also, I seem to find getting recommended individual tradesmen such as electricians, heating engineers and kitchen fitters much easier than getting a general builder and plasterer.

So I could do the electric re-wiring, heating, kitchen and stripping down the property on my own and give the rest to builder A? I hope I'm making sense here. Just trying to see if I can get the job done faster, cheaper but for those that are riskier, I would go with builder A. If he agrees to the plan.

There will still be 30k worth of jobs, if not more, for him to do

I have cut and pasted his quote below. Added by own feedback (F) and thoughts, on where I could make a difference

----------------

A -Site Set up: Temporary W/C Skips Plyboard driveway Fences/Hoarding Signage Insurances Plant Site Management 1 Item

3,387.50-- £3,387.50 B PC SUM:

My thoughts- The above seems a reasonable quote?

====================================================

B-Removal of existing conservatory roof and replace with Like for like. Upon removal of roof: Remove existing brickwork above conservatory window approx. 5m in length (Due to leaning and cracking in mortar) and replace with new. Upon Surveying the job, we had noticed that the windows have no lintel above - We will allow to supply and fit new concrete lintel. Re Lay Concrete capping stones on both parapets to left- and right-hand side of roof Budget Re Lay Concrete caping stones on both parapets to left and right-hand side of the roof

Budget 1 Item 4,500.00 £4,500.00

--My thoughts---- Seems like a lower quote to me

As previously advised by Jonathan, would prefer replacing the Georgian glass roof, with an all-weather roof--

1. To supply and fit 150 mm x 50 mm timbers, 125 mm Celotex Pearl deck and a fully felt roof to make it watertight.

I would prefer if builder A does this job

===========================================================

C-Chimney: PC Sum: Access to Chimney: Repoint chimney and flashing detail 1 Item

800.00 £800.00

D- Re position corner trims on existing Fascia Re position Soffit vent

1 Item 120.00 £120.00

E- Front Elevation: Replace 1no. missing concrete tile to the right-hand side of the left window. 1 Item

81.25 £81.25

My thoughts--- I would prefer if builder A does all the 3 jobs( CDE) mentioned above

========================================

-----

F Rear Garden Wall: Option A PC SUM: Removal of Existing Garden wall and dispose of Make Good Patio slabbing area - allowance for the area only where the wall was sitting - Slabs to match existing

1 Item 950.00 £950.00

G Rear Garden Wall: Option B PC SUM - To assess the extent of the rebuild - Rebuild existing wall - Remove all mortar, rebed any existing loose bricks and repoint

1 Item 637.50 £637.50

H New Loft Hatch with pull down ladder to be installed in the front right-hand bedroom: Create opening Supply and install Loft ladder and hatch and architrave around the opening. Make good ceiling around opening by patch plastering 1m x 1m allowance.

1 Item 637.50 £637.50

My thoughts- Would prefer if builder A does all the above three jobs ( FGH) mentioned above

=======================================

I Stripping of all wallpaper throughout the property. As we can’t determine how easy or hard the paper will take to come off or how many layers are on the walls. We will Put in an allowance of 5 Days 5 Day 160.00 £800.00

My thoughts--- Could I get someone else to do this job? A cheaper, quicker person. It's after all just stripping things down?

============================================

J PC SUM: Plastering works throughout the property: Removal of debonded plaster and cracks in brickwork - TBC and quoted once full inspection after cladding and wallpaper removed. 1 Item 2,000.00 £2,000.00

Feedback from another builder- The quote is low, I assume he is quoting to simply re-skim? It is never that simple. I would suggest a budget of 2500-5000 because if the actual plaster falls off, then more will be needed. At this point, there is no turning back. Given that I would be doing a full rewiring, I guess more plaster will fall off

Query-- Could I give the plastering job to someone cheaper? Which is a more delicate job, plastering or painting?

==============================================

K Strip out of Kitchen, isolate plumbing and electrics and dispose of in builders skip Removal of the wall in between kitchen and dining room. (to be assessed if load-bearing wall - TBC)

PC Sum to supply new Kitchen £5000.00

PC sum to fit new Kitchen £3000.00

1 Item 8,450.00 £8,450.00

My plan-- To get the kitchen done by an independent kitchen supplier in Birmingham

To get the wall knocked down by a cheaper builder BUT the RSJ steel on pad stones, to be done by builder A

===========================================================

L Strip out of all floor finishes throughout the property Strip out of all internal doors, architrave and skirting Strip out all timber wall cladding All to be disposed of in builder’s skip

1 Item 975.00 £975.00

M Upgrade of Heating system: Isolate and remove the existing heating system and replace it with New combi Boiler.

1 Item 4,250.00 £4,250.00

Above two jobs to stick with builder A

=========================================

N Garage roof: To be surveyed to assess work involved to rectify pooling of water

1 Item 0.00 £0.00

Above job to stick with builder A

========================================

O- Full House Rewire

PC Sum £6,000.00 1 Item 6,000.00 £6,000.00

The quote seems too high

I got a reliable electrician to quote me 4600, including smoke alarms, so find this very high. I Will try and avoid builder A

==============================

P Internal Door Replacement: PC sum to supply doors and furniture £95 per door PC sum to fit door £75 per door Allowance 9 Internal doors (excluding wardrobe doors) 1 Item 1,530.00 £1,530.00

Seems like a cheap quote? Stick to builder A

=====================================

Q Decoration to newly plastered areas: 3 coats of Dulux standard range Emulsion to walls and ceilings Prime, undercoat and gloss skirting boards and architrave. No allowance has been made for the decoration of doors.

1 Item 7,687.50 £7,687.50

Seems like an expensive quote from builder A. I always thought that painting was an easier job to do.

Could I give this to my builder, if he's cheaper?

========================================

R Supply and replace skirting boards throughout Property Allowance 90 Linear Meters 6" Chamfered skirting Supply and replace chamfered Architrave on all internal doors

1 Item 3,875.00 £3,875.00

S Floor Finishes: No allowance has been made for any floor finishes i.e carpet/tiles To be quoted upon confirmation of floor finish per area. Replacement floorboards - Any replacement floorboards to be quoted once all existing floor finished are stripped up

1 Item 0.00 £0.00

Above two jobs to be given to builder A?

========================

Total £46,906.25

====

Many thanks for your input, sorry if it is long and painful to read

Kind Regards

Mel

Featured Answer

Jonathan

2 years ago

Yes you have a plan.
Separately I think you are being optimistic about timescales and should schedule the heating and electrics for later rather than sooner.
Repairing your conservatory or changing its windows won’t need prior permission. Building regs is different- it’s a certification that the work has been completed to standard- you need to go online (later when you know the total list of work you are going to do), pay a fee, complete some paperwork then call them to arrange inspection when the work is close to completion.

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Comments (10)

Jonathan
2 years ago
Wow- long post.

Here’s what I think…. You can either have a fast job, a cheap job or a quality job- getting all three is impossible but two out of three might be possible. So set your expectations accordingly and work out what is most important- personally I think that since you work away (in contrast to many of us who have had to live through it all) you should focus on the budget and quality even if that means having to accept a wait.

Next I’m not sure there is much that you can do in advance of builder A becoming available- you can’t rewire or do the heating because the building work changes some of the walls. You can however strip out the inside and give the garden a tidy up- you could actually do this at the weekends but don’t take on anything that could injure you as you still have to work and earn in order to pay the bills. If you do the strip out you will save £450 labour (because you will still have to pay for skips). You could also buy a wall paper steamer and tackle the wallpaper. Again this is time consuming but within most people skill set.

If you were going to give jobs to someone else I would get builder A to rebuild the conservatory and take down the dining room wall and tackle the repair jobs. You could then get an electrician, heating engineer, plasterer and then a joiner to hang the doors, architrave, floors and kitchen. Lastly a good decorator. It does sound like Builder A has these contacts and can pull them in, and he can manage them… but he will charge a premium for having the address book and managing these trades.

Personally I think the finishing trades are the most important to get right because if your doors are badly hung, or your decorating is sloppy you have to live with it for a long time. Equally a bad kitchen fitter can make even the most expensive kitchen look cheap.

I note that the quote do seem to vary but this often means that one has quoted for a more comprehensive job- for instance does the higher rewiring quote include replastering, returning after the kitchen has been fitted to connect all the appliances and eventual sign off for regs?

I suppose the moto is that perhaps it’s better to wait for the best people and use this time now to have explicit plans nailed down.
HU-768402840 thanked Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Under the title of using this time to get the planning done you might use this time to consider the layout. I would amend the Conservatory plan you mentioned earlier- I think you should swap at least one the windows for patio doors or bifolds, I think you should raise the ceiling height to the same height as the main house and you should open this narrow conservatory to the kitchen dining room. In turn this means more of your house will be connected with the garden, you have better sized rooms and you will gave probably added more to the value.

You might look at your neighbours who have similar layouts. Or you could post that as a dilemma on this forum for other peoples opinion.
HU-768402840 thanked Jonathan
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Jonathan
2 years ago
You might also use the next few weeks to explore the kitchen choices- I don’t think builders merchants kitchens are designed as well as those from independent places- however even if you upped the spec from what is being suggested by the builder for £5000- and even if you employed a designer like @Oneplan to design your kitchen there may well be economies to be made.

Those that know suggest avoiding laminate worktops from some builders merchants but I think in your case you are probably thinking of Quartz instead.
HU-768402840 thanked Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
And you can spend some time now nailing down exactly where you want sockets etc. Since you are rewiring you can put sockets anywhere… think about if you want to hide your broadband router on top of cabinets in the utility room, think about if you have cordless tools that you recharge in the garage, do you want outside lights and if so where? Do you love outside Christmas decorations or like to vacuum the car and therefore need outside sockets? Do you want to mount the TV on the wall and want the sockets to be hidden behind? Will you ever get a shower pump and need a socket near your hot water tank? Will you be installing an alarm or cameras and need extra sockets accordingly? Are you planning on buying electric garden heaters and need sockets for that or a mower? Perhaps you are going to get an electric fire or have hobbies or need somewhere to work from home that necessitates plans now. Now is a good time to plan that in detail.
HU-768402840 thanked Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
You might also use this time to buy some of the things that may have long lead times. I was surprised that my doors took 12 weeks to arrive as did some of my lights.
HU-768402840 thanked Jonathan
HU-768402840
Original Author
2 years ago
Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for all your advise, as usual , worth it's weight in gold

I am usually at home only on the weekend and as my day job is rather hectic, combined with an L5 slipped disc, will restrict what I could do physically to help out.

I would rather divide the refurbishment jobs into those which are like

A) ‘destruction’ or just ripping things out.

Versus those which need

B) re-construction or as you mentioned, the finishes.

I would also divide the available tradesmen into

A) Those with no reviews, who can start work at a short notice and are cheaper and

B) Those who are expensive, have a web presence/reviews and would take 1-2 months to start a job

Using your timeline which you gave me in August, I would list the jobs in the following chronological order

Jobs A) to be done by a builder who has no reviews and can be available at a short notice

1) Strip out the house. I would strip out carpets, skirting boards, wall cladding, partition by the stairs, kitchen, unwanted curtains, internal doors and architrave, the fire hearth,

I will need a gas engineer too to disconnect the fire and hob.

2)-- Dispose of all the stuff, using 6/7 skips.

3)General builder to take down the wall between the dining room and kitchen. As it’s a non-weight wearing wall, I would persist with my cheaper builder A?

4) My dining room and kitchen ceilings will probably come down at this stage?? Again, persist with my cheaper builder A?.

5) heating engineer and electrician to start rewiring and central heating. —I have shortlisted a couple of electricians, who have excellent reviews and could start work in 2-4 weeks.

6)Consider TV/broadband/alarm at this time for a tidier result—Will have to contact Sky

7) replacement windows and internal doors, will give this to the established builder B- Hopefully by this time, it will be like 4 weeks down the line and he should be available to start work

8) external repairs such as roof tiles and gutters- Again builder B.

9)/ additional insulation to the loft- Builder B

10/ plaster boarding where necessary, coving, plastering. - **

Here I have a query, do I give this job to the good builder? Or try and outsource it to another plasterer? Is plastering more difficult or important than painting?

12/electrician - ceiling lights, second fix sockets.

13/ joiner- new doors, architrave, bannisters, skirtings. If wood floor skirting to be fitted after.

14/ decorator - emulsion ceilings and walls, woodwork primed and finished with eggshell, external decorating as necessary.

My tradesmen would do this

15/ floors fitted, radiators hung

16/ kitchen installation

Plan to get the raw materials/ design from Wren and then get an independent kitchen fitter to fit it. Unless the independent kitchen comes up with a better alternative. Have emailed a couple

Builder B, or the established one, to do all the works as mentioned in the survey, plus the RSJ on the padstone and the conservatory, along with a new roof. I probably leave the plastering to him, including the doors, carpets and new floors

Does this sound like a plan? to recap

It would leave at least 20-30K worth of jobs to be done by the main builder B

I could get some no- interest loan from Wren for their kitchen

Use the builder A for stripping and ripping things out,

Tradesmen such as electrician and heating to do individual jobs

Any advise would be much appreciated

Regards

Mel

ps

regarding the conservatory roof, switching over from a glass to an all year round. Do I have to get building reg permission prior to starting work? How long does it usually take?

Also, if the original roof is removed, would it not leave the building exposed to rain etc, until the new roof is installed?
HU-768402840
Original Author
2 years ago
One query,

The wall between the dining room and the kitchen is a non-weight bearing wall, confirmed even by a structural survey. Although the recommendation is that an RSJ would be needed, which I will do.

My query is, has the RSJ be done, as soon as the wall is taken down? Or could it be done at a later stage? Can a non-weight-bearing wall be taken down with ease, or is it a specialised job?

Thanks

Mel
Jonathan
2 years ago
Most builder can take out this wall and put in an RSJ. This is a really quick job too. Don’t try and split this job you won’t get finished any quicker
HU-768402840 thanked Jonathan
HU-768402840
Original Author
2 years ago
Thanks Jonathan

I shall ask them to do the RSJ at the same time

The main builder A, which I liked and had shortlisted, now say they won’t be able to start until April- May!! Also their prices will increase, as the price of raw material has shot up

I think I will just have to do this all by my self. Search facebook for tradesmen and just crack on. Hope I don’t encounter any cowboy builders

Either this or wait for 6

months for a reputable builder and 10k mortgage payments down the drain

Kr

Mel

Full refurbishment advise please

Jonathan

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