Cost difference impact vs nonimpact ?
Curious as to an approximate difference in a quality window say Simonton. Impact vs non-impact cost difference ? 25% more or ? Impact glass surely has its places and I understand the value. However, they DO break or shatter like anything else. Locally I can get a good quality rated fabric shutter installed at $8 per sq ft. That's reasonable, yes it'll break. We will have about 36 windows in the house, cost wise it'll add up fast. 90% of our windows are about 16' above ground level. Shutters take install time I know.
I also just for curiosity called Simonton asking about their impact windows which are custom built. I asked about lead time for a replacement window if one of their impact windows needed to be replaced. Answer was "you'll have a pretty good wait". As in how long ? Couldn't say for sure. Non-impact stock sized windows would ship immediately.
Gives me reason to pause.
Comments (48)
PROWindows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoThe the biggest benefit to an impact window is the lack of human interaction that is dependent on them working. If you are out of town, it still protects the home. The same could not be said for shutters or other protection methods.
Pensacola PI thanked Windows on Washington Ltd
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoThanks and very very good point. The downfalls are obvious.
PROEvolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoAsk any window manufacturer what their lead-time will be on windows after a Category 3 storm hits and you will only get eye rolls. There are hundreds of horror stories here in Florida about folks having to wait more than 9 months for new windows after Charlie came through.
As far as shutters are concerned, I think that what WoW meant to say was:
#1 " if you are out of town, it [an impact window] still offers some protection to the home."
In actuality, impact windows are a sacrificial form of storm protection only designed to protect the building envelope from pressurization after they break. To the best of my knowledge, they aren't tested to prevent water penetration at category 3 hurricane force wind levels and certainly not after they break. So if you aren't home to sop up the water mess when the storm hits, chances are you'll have some water damage to look forward to (whether they break or not) when you return. If you live in a high-rise condo, you may have some additional damage to the units below you, as well.
#2 "The same could not be said for some shutters or other protection methods."
Many forms of hurricane protection require deployment, but not all.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoI guess you could say "some" in front of any product descriptor. The reality is that in the right type of storm with the right flying debris, any of the above mentioned methods of protection can be defeated.
Impact windows, while expensive, are the most passive in the sense that they are there and at full protection (assuming they are closed and locked) all the time. The same cannot be said for the vast majority of other protection devices.
Depending on where you live and the incidences of storms, combining protection methods is not a terrible idea.
As you will see in this video, the storm shutter (mediocre example of one in my opinion) as well as the fabric protection did nothing to prevent the glass from being broken.
Contrast that with the same test (i.e. projectile speed of the 2x4) and the impact window did not fail. In this case (in the video) it would allow neither debris or water into the home.
If the window is Miami-Dade impact certified...the window is not permitted to be penetrated by the projectile and therefore your water protection is maintained.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoThe OP's original question was about cost difference between hurricane rated and non-rated windows. He's already aware that no matter what brand of window he purchases and installs, all (not some) impact windows are going to break and need to be replaced. I realize that with all of the different levels of quality and other factors involved in window pricing, arriving at a solid range of cost difference is nearly impossible - especially when the salesperson gives you an initial price of $XX,XXX.00 and then 2 days later comes back with a price that is suddenly 20% or more cheaper. Maybe you can direct the OP to a different thread where it has been thoroughly explained and rehashed by other homeowners and window salespeople.
I would agree with you that the wood panel, fabric and accordion shutter shown in your choice of videos are mediocre, at best. With the dozens of shutter test videos available on YouTube, I'm still trying to figure out why you chose this one. It is neither accurate nor factual - although it does represent the current sales attitude of the impact window industry here in Florida. Although the video is titled "How to choose hurricane window protection.", it never comes close to doing so. Because it uses a "celebrity" like Tom Silva, it becomes even more pitiful in terms of educating the public which is what one would expect from a show on PBS and certainly not something that either one of us can control. In the video, Tom Silva also tells his sidekick that he is going to show him "all of the options that are available to cover your windows and doors during a hurricane." They see THREE!!! I think that you would agree that he falls a bit short of showing "all" that Tom promises in the earlier script. No roll-downs, corrugated panels, cellular Lexan sheets or hurricane screens, either. About the only truth that it does demonstrate is the fact that ALL impact windows break as the OP stated.
It also seems that it's okay for Tom Silva to tell folks that after an impact window is broken that their home is still protected from wind and rain, when it isn't. To my knowledge, impact windows don't have to pass either air infiltration or water penetration testing after they have been impact tested. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Here in Florida, salespeople have little hesitation telling prospective customers that impact windows are "hurricane proof" and "shatterproof". They use phrases like "survive a hurricane" or "withstand hurricane forces" which the video that you posted clearly depicts as false. If they "survived" they certainly wouldn't need to be replaced, would they?
I think that you would agree that the best way to protect your home from a hurricane, is to provide protection to your non-rated window openings to guard against window breakage and pressurization from hurricane force winds and debris while protecting your expensive impact window investment from breakage and water leakage with an approved shutter system of some kind.
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agoGood points EVO. I lived in S. FL when Andrew hit. For the record, not so sure any protection made it out unscathed. It was unreal. I've been through my share of hurricanes.
friedajune
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoJust wondering if the OP is even given the option not to get impact glass. My friend is renovating a home in Sarasota. Impact glass was required by Code. She didn't have a choice, though she also had shutters, but having shutters didn't avoid the Code requirement.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoWhy are we talking about sales processes here? I don't see any reference to any inquiry from the OP with regards to that.
It seems that you have some issue with the window industry at large here.
I didn't choose that video...Google did. I Google'd impact window testing and the chose the first video that I saw that was not from a manufacturer.
Nothing is ever "proof" in my book and hence the reason that I never used that terminology. There are "impact" rated windows based on the very specific missile tests that they must pass and additional thresholds for the Miami Dade rated units.
I will let Oberon weigh in on the specifics of the tests, but it is my understanding that Miami Dade units do not allow for any breach of the laminated layer. I think they also require the unit to be operable which would imply that they are still functionally resistant to water and air infiltration. The reality, as you know, is that any window can leak water with the right conditions if it is totally intact so I don't hinge any recommendation on that fact.What "survives" on the window depends entirely on what and where the impact is. If it hits the glass and shatters the panel (while the laminated panel stays intact), you can replace the sash or the glass without necessitating a full unit remove. If the frame takes an impact, you are going to have to change out the whole unit at that point.
You seem to mistake me for an apologist for the impact window. I never claimed that one was superior over another. I only stated (quoted from above) that:
biggest benefit to an impact window is the lack of human interaction
that is dependent on them working. If you are out of town, it still
protects the home. The same could not be said for shutters or other
protection methods.The truth of the matter is that if I were building a home in a hurricane prone zone, I would incorporate shutters into the design and hopefully some sort of electronic system that can be controlled remotely. That would be the best of both worlds.
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agoThanks WOW. Funny, several friends who live in S. FL have all impact rated windows. Due to replacement costs, the insurance companies are mandating the use of shutters as well. Thought that was interesting.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@Pensacola Pl I went down to Homestead after Andrew and spent a week cutting trees out of peoples' yards. It was an amazing spectacle - swimming pools full of sea-life, streets covered with 1000s of red fiddler crabs heading back to the ocean and chain-link fence embedded into tree trunks. Total devastation.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@friedajune I'll have to do some research on Sarasota County building codes. It makes little sense to mandate impact windows when approved hurricane shutters are tested to protect the windows behind them. Why bother setting statewide hurricane protection standards if they can't be trusted as valid or effective? When the window opening as a whole is equipped to meet those standards, it used be sufficient to pass code. Maybe that has changed.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@WoW When someone stops by our booth at a hurricane expo and proclaims, "I don't need hurricane shutters - I have hurricane proof windows." yer damn right I have a problem with the window industry!
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoI would encourage you to educate those folks at that point, which I am sure you do. I don't see where anyone in this thread used that descriptor though so you are preaching to the choir.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agoWoW. It's not just at expo's - I hear the same type of comments every day over the phone and dozens of emails. Isn't educating the customer the responsibility of the salesperson who is presenting his/her product? If they said nothing it would be better than saying something misleading. The manufacturers are just as guilty. Go look at the Pella website. They bluntly state "No storm shutters are needed." PGT touts that they have over 4 million Wingard products installed around the world with no reported impact failures. I guess it all depends upon your definition of the word "failure".
I can already imagine some little child, fascinated by the ongoing storm and staring wide-eyed out of a window when it gets struck and shatters showering the child with thousands of pieces of sharp glass. I'm certainly open to your suggestions on how to stop this before someone is injured. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
We still haven't addressed the OP's question about cost comparisons.........
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@Pensacola Pl I guess at this point the best way to get a cost comparison is to go to your local big box store and get quotes of the same window brand in both rated and non-rated versions. Then call a reputable hurricane protection dealer and get pricing on your favorite type and brand of window protection. Good luck to you in your search and education.
cpartist
6 years agoWhat "survives" on the window depends entirely on what and where the impact is. If it hits the glass and shatters the panel (while the laminated panel stays intact), you can replace the sash or the glass without necessitating a full unit remove. If the frame takes an impact, you are going to have to change out the whole unit at that point.
When the window installer installed one of my PGT impact windows incorrectly he had to remove it. When he removed the window, the outside pane broke. It hasn't been replaced yet.
It will be an easy job to replace the exterior glazing and meanwhile the window still retains its resistance to water and wind. How do I know? We had tropical storm Emily roll through a week ago. No water penetration on the one window.
A good hurricane impact window will retain its resistance to water and wind because of the middle and inner layers.
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoThanks, E. I've got a the builder's supplier doing that now. Been emailing them a few times today. They did intact confirm that several insurance companies are requiring home owners with impact windows to also have a shutter of some type due to the cost of the windows. No shutters, no replacement coverage. They also confirmed a "long wait"'for replacement impact glass windows after a storm hits. Basically hurry up and wait. Due to height of our 3rd floor by code, we are not mandated to have impact glass. Windows are about 30' above ground. We are in the gulf so a bit different up here.
cpartist
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoI can already imagine some little child, fascinated by the ongoing storm and staring wide-eyed out of a window when it gets struck and shatters showering the child with thousands of pieces of sharp glass. I'm certainly open to your suggestions on how to stop this before someone is injured. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Why would you assume a window that meets the Miami Dade standards would shatter and spray a child with thousands of pieces of sharp glass?
cpartist
6 years agoPI are you saying all your windows are above 30'? Because code states anything below 30' must be impact resistant.
Is this new about insurance companies requiring homeowners to also have a shutter? I haven't heard that one and reading through the different google threads, it says you must have one OR the other. Not that you need both!
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@cpartist I would only assume so after watching this video. What would be your takeaway of it??
@WoW. I would suppose that cpartist just proved my point about the spread of misinformation..........I give you exhibit A and rest my case.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@cpartist Insurance companies can do whatever they want to. Just a few years ago there was a customer in West Palm Beach who had his new beach house outfitted with $80k worth of impact windows. After about 3 seasons of no storms he had to have them replaced due them getting etched from the wind blown sands of the beach. Insurance company said "this time okay, but next time it's on you".
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agoCP, I doubt it's every insurance company. However, I've been told by the one supplier, my daughter who lives in S. FL and friends living down there that it was mandated by their policy. Not all of our windows are above 30', several are. Code is EITHER shutters OR impact windows.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoGoodness gracious. We are going down the rabbit hole now aren't we.
Children injured because they are standing in front of a window during a hurricane? Some might argue that is the job of the parents to not let children make stupid decisions.
I am officially checking out of this thread as we are way off the rails here. My original comments stand on their own are are still valid here.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agoIf the homeowner has been led to believe that the impact windows are hurricane proof, why would they have cause for concern? You can trivialize it as a trip down the rabbit hole or stick your head in the sand if you choose to. Because of our knowledge, you and I both know better and have the common sense to avoid the situation entirely. Unfortunately the general public does not. So, again I say to you I am open to your suggestions on what is the best way to go about educating the general public en masse. I have yet to see a window with a warning label on it warning of the hazard.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoMore government to save us? Maybe more warning labels.
Last one for Florida seems geographically appropriate.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agoAs the window professional, I would hope that you could come up with the better solution. It's possible that I'm wrong about that.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoIts more than possible...its probable.
I don't see a "problem" with the industry so my consciousness isn't working on a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I do not think that glass shards on the inside of a home from an impact window that is drilled by a high speed projectile is a real problem. I think there are far greater issues and dangers during a hurricane than the complete abandonment of common sense (or parenting) and standing in front of an impact window.
If you can find me examples of impact window manufacturers that are directly marketing their products by telling folks they can stand in front of their windows during a hurricane, I will be happy to join you in opposition (perhaps not as fervently as you have demonstrated so far) to that type of marketing and misinformation.If you think that this is an issue that an already overly involved government needs to weigh in on, you and I have more fundamental differences than you can imagine.
Maybe more safety signs?
There are some funny ones out there.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoFor the record, as previously stated above, I also don't think that an impact rated window is the end all solution. As mentioned above, I think a combination effort is recommended here in situations where code mandates an impact window already. I think there are more significant protection options that are more robust, cheaper, and non-encumbering.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agoIf everyone in the window industry sales force adopted your approach to window protection I'm hopeful that my phone calls and emails complaints would lessen. I'll be sure and let you know when that happens. I'm not going to hold my breath.
On the other hand, anyone who reads the PGT website section regarding "Glass Type Comparisons" or JeldWen's ImpactGard's "Safe Impact-resistance" and then watches the posted video and doesn't see an industry problem with misleading information to the public might be putting their perceived sense of good judgement at risk. I hope that isn't the stand that you prefer to take.
- PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoSeeing as we neither utilize an impact window or currently do business in areas where it is required, my stance on it is exactly as stated above.
If that marketing information you referenced above is what you consider to be purposefully misleading, I am going to surmise that you haven't dealt with many of the replacement window companies out there. At the end of the day, as with all purchase decisions in a free market ("Yay Capitalism!!"), consumers must be their own advocates and educate themselves (Caveat Emptor).
Thankfully there are resources like this and other discussion boards where professionals, with zero business opportunities to the 99.99% of folks that they deal with on said forums, give of their time and knowledge freely to help consumers navigate their decisions.
The Pros that I know of on here have in the hundreds of thousands of forum posts helping folks all across the country. That is what makes the forums so impactful (pardon the pun).
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years ago@WoW The problem isn't necessarily with the window companies like yours, it's with the manufacturers with websites like the ones that I mentioned that imply the notion that their products are safe and durable beyond their limits. As a distributor of their product, you merely follow their lead. The laboratory testing parameters are just that and nothing more. None of the manufacturers test at levels below these to ascertain where glass breakage begins nor do they go beyond the testing point to find out where failure commences. You answer will be "Why would they?" and mine is "Why don't they?" Isn't knowing the limits of a product such as this important? Isn't there power in that knowledge?
I hope that the Pros on here that you speak of who do promote the use of impact windows don't turn a blind eye towards the safety concerns.
@Ron M, Please don't confuse meeting code with claims of safe protection. I'm not saying that any of the impact test windows don't pass code - you have missed the point, completely. It's a matter of implied safety that the manufacturer passes down to the distributor, the contractor and to the street salesperson.
Hypothetically, were one of my family members to be injured by flying glass from a window that was advertised and presented as being "safe protection" and didn't need additional protection, I would be headed to the lawyer's office. (This isn't going to happen because I have made all of my family well aware of the danger.) If this makes me "bitter and petty", I'll wear it as a badge of honor, thank you. If it happened to one of your family members, I'm pretty sure that you would feel the same way and I would welcome you to the club. Many incidents are always acceptable to some degree when they happens to someone else, but when it happens to you, suddenly a different light shines on the subject.......kind of like how sad it is when your office coworker has been diagnosed with prostate cancer and then to find out how devastating it is when you are diagnosed with it, too.
I don't consider purposely misleading customers to be "salesmanship' - I consider it lying and if that lie leads to personal injury, I would consider that grounds for civil litigation. Every product is sold from the pov of creating "angst" or fear, not just the impact window business.
Lastly, I don't believe that forums are a place to promote products . I do,
however, believe that manufacturers in a multi-billion dollar free
market industry have the responsibility to at least mention - and/or
caution the buyer - of the hazards associated with that product. Not
doing so begs for the dreaded intervention of government regulation that
none of us wants. My hope is to educate because there is power in
knowledge. - PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd
6 years agoSo...its code to have impact windows and that is what the government has settled on, however, you think the government should either have higher standards or compel the manufacturers to tell folks not to stand in front of their windows during a storm?
So the government, the same entity that you want to give more power to, didn't do it well enough the first time?I suppose we could have the government round everyone up into a single storm proof shelter or we could have the government mandate every home have a bomb shelter. I am sure the bomb shelter industry would like that.
I am going to theorize that about as many people get hurt from slipping and stabbing themselves with their toothbrush so perhaps its time for the government to step in and require non-slip surfaces in all bathrooms.
To you hypothetical scenario, I would be very concerned for my family member. After that, assuming they didn't suffer any permanent loss of vision or injury and they weren't a person of diminished cognitive abilities, I would ridicule the crap out of them for standing in front of a glass window in a hurricane. I would probably also be worried about this family member picking up hot pans, running with scissors, or taking a bath while making some toast.
I am guessing that if you want to be able to sue the impact window company, you would also like to sue auto makers for car crashes, alcohol manufacturers for drunk driving, and gun manufactures for shooting deaths?
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agoFWIW, I have my cost difference. Window for window in the house impact rated windows cost 72% more. That's a quote directly from a supplier, no middleman. Granted to meet building codes I need to add some form of a shutter.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agoIs the quote for windows only or installed? Are they single pane sashes or IGUs?
Ron Mexico
6 years ago"@Ron M, Please don't confuse meeting code with claims of safe protection."
Uh, I think its you that have missed the point. That is the reason that code exists, to develop an enforceable, minimum standard to protect the best interest of the structure and its occupants with regards to safety. Nobody has argued that going above and beyond that is not beneficial, or perhaps even recommended in most cases. Then you once again go down the aforementioned rabbit hole of simultaneously trying to instill fear, purport your own product as the ACTUAL minimum needed, and ironically trash window sales people once again. YOU are the salesman my friend. Fear mongering is about the sleaziest tactic there is. And for the record, I would not stand near, nor would I have my children anywhere near a window during a hurricane. What an asinine statement. Your last statement is particularly interesting though. I'm sure that we can all agree that there is no such thing as "hurricane proof", whether it be windows, shutters, or whatever. My question is, do you and your own product advertise all of these disclaimers? That at some point, this product can fail so don't let your children stand in front of the window for risk of decapitation by a shutter that failed at the hinge and flew through a window at 80 mph? As I stated before, if you want to educate/promote, then do so. Just don't be the pot that calls the kettle black in the process. Tacky.
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agoSh*t, I sure opened a can of worms with a VERY simple question LOL. Carry on folks. I've got my information. @Ron, great points though. John Q. Public should be educated as to exactly WHAT a product can do. I don't care if it is impact glass or hurricane shutters. Companies should educate the public HONESTLY and be transparent and let the consumer make an informed decision instead of using shady marketing tactics. I'm not implying that anyone involved in this thread is. However, in reading various websites for both products, it is inferred that product X is better than product Y because.... Call a spade a spade. Glass breaks, impact or otherwise.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago@Ron. Once again you have missed the mark, Ron. The hurricane testing standards were developed to reduce property losses only with no regard as to human safety. The insurance companies said that if something wasn't done, insurance costs would skyrocket in Florida or not be available at all. So structural engineers and the window industry got together and the testing standards that we have today are the result - far from perfect but somewhat satisfactory to the insurance companies. They hoped that by stopping the pressurization of the structure they could stop the roof from being blown off and thus reduce the amount of total structure losses. That is why it doesn't matter that the window is destroyed by the large missile impact. As long as it stays within the window frame and stops air from entering the building, it is considered an acceptable product. The fact that it is sacrificial and will no longer function as a window makes no difference.
You might be better off understanding the topic than trying to psychoanalyze me. As I said previously, I'm not here to promote my product but rather to educate and inform the reader that impact windows are not the safe, ideal form of hurricane protection that they may have been led to believe.
@Pensacola You totally understand my point. Thank you. I'm going to let this thread die before someone has it devolve into name calling and personal attacks that achieve nothing and only give good, informative forums like this one a bad rap.
trickyputt
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoWhoa. The Government has a shard scale, and I have installed contract shard control to those specifications. GSA 1, 2, 3a, 3b, 4 and 5 all have a definitions and detailed description of the protection offered re shards. We use a thick window film bonded to the frame. GSA1 is a poly carbonate where the "glazing" does not break. Down to 3b you probably would not need a doctor.
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years agoYes let it die a peaceful death lol. I would be remiss if I also didn't note that shutters like glass can also easily be destroyed.
User
6 years ago"FWIW, I have my cost difference. Window for window in the house impact rated windows cost 72% more. That's a quote directly from a supplier, no middleman. Granted to meet building codes I need to add some form of a shutter."
"I would be remiss if I also didn't note that shutters like glass can also easily be destroyed."
If you are concerned about this "safety issue", you should be comparing the cost of regular tempered safety glass to the impact window glass, not the cheap glass that can break into dangerously large pieces behind the fabric shutter when it fails. Many "shutters" call for a space between the shutter and glass of more than 5" to allow for deflection at impact in their certification in order to not break the innermost pane of glass under their MINIMUM test standard.
- PRO
Evolution Hurricane Shutters, LLC
6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago@trickyputt. Is the shard test that you are referring to the same one used to Q.C. tempered glass where you swing a steel ball into a tempered lite and measure the size of the chunks?
@Pensacola. Will agree with you if you add the adjective of "some" to your statement.
Pensacola PI
Original Author6 years ago@E yes some shutters obviously and same applies to glass. Lot of factors involved.
ibroussard79
6 years agoI'm going thru the same exercise. I asked three of the national companies for the cost of new construction wood (aluminum cladding) double hung 3' wide by 6' tall. The non-impact windows were all within $100 of each other. Two of the companies wanted $900 to upgrade to impact glass (same series, just impact glass instead of "regular" glass), which was about an 85% increase. One company wanted $300 to upgrade. I had a lot of windows replaced a couple of years ago on my previous home. The replacement windows were vinyl and manufactured by a regional company. There were a dozen or so 3x6 windows, and the upgrade cost for impact glass for those was about $300 each. My understanding is that most major manufacturers use the same brand that was used in the vinyl replacement windows (Cardinal), so I don't understand why the huge upgrade charge difference.
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Ron Mexico